Bad idea in my view. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Call for details with your specific combination. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. Simply put, the lobe center of the camshaft controls where the power curve is applied. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. 68 Mustang, 306, AFR 185\'s, CI cam, FPA\'s, Bigs 650 DP, T5Z, 9" w/4.33's. Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Introduction. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. When degreeing in the camshaft, you are making sure the intake centerline is precisely where the cam is intended to be. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. by lazaris Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm, Post But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. Realize what the engine is going in, however, as you may not be able to use the wildest cam out there. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. (ICL + ECL) / 2 = LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE (LSA) LSA is a RESULT of the PROPER events. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. music to your ears? This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. But, you may find a lobe wider than a 120-degree angle in any car engine.But, I must let you know that those are customized car engines prepared for any special purpose, such as racing, drag racing, off-road riding, or performing stunts. 112-110 Deg. Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. . The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. 108: 110: 112: 114 . A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. If it occurs too late, it will lean out the cylinder and greatly hinder the performance of the engine. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. For example, an oval-track small-block that needs to motivate the car off the turns quickly might have a narrow LSA of around 106 degrees, resulting in more overlap. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. changing just the LSA on my cam wouldnt make a bit of difference on vacuum operated items E ericnova72 More for Less Racer Joined Jan 13, 2007 22,026 Posts We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. 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So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. That notion is completely false. I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. The absence of engine knocking ensures that your car engine is reasonably combusting the fuel. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? Lobe Separation Angle "LSA "Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 17 of 17 Posts . If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. I would say 114-117* would be a normal 1960's stock cam range and 117* to 120* is more what we see on modern engines. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? by mrsmythe Wed May 14, 2003 2:26 am, Post The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. FWIW. L'auteur prsente une nouvelle contribution de floristique nord-africaine consacre la flore du massif du Rif et des rgions du nord du Maroc, dans le cadre gographique prdfini par le Catalogue des Plantes vasculaires du Nord du Maroc de Valds et al. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. 2023 Power Automedia. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. You must log in or register to reply here. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. I'm surprized at these questions as well as some of the replies. " Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. A tighter LSA is always going to have more overlap, which allows the exhaust and intake systemif they're tuned wellto work together.". Your email address will not be published. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. Well, If I am not mistaken, you must be looking for which angle has what impact on your engine or which would be the best. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. It really comes down to the application. THis is a real generalization, but the weaker your heads, the more you will like the smaller centers ( 106-108) the better the heads, and the higher the compression, the more it will like the wider centers ( 112-114)everything else falls somewhere in the middle( 108-110) Once you get close with the cam centerlines, it wont make much differance if you change it up or down by 2 degrees. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. Either learn to fix it, or learn to write checks. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? I think that cam had 110 lobe sep. Im loking at a summit cam with close to the same lift and duration #s but 114 lobe sep. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. But, you may wonder knowing that a higher valve clearance rate reduces the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. The only reason I . I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. pump gas, no additive's as well, runs good, i will put the highest octane in, which is 93.. Test 1 was easy. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. Looking at 108vs. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. JavaScript is disabled. Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. . LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. JavaScript is disabled. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. such as 290 @.050? The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? Adding an aftermarket cam to an otherwise stock engine can boost output by 40-60 hp (or more) with no other changes (except possibly a valvespring upgrade). But this is not the only reason. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. lobe centers and lobe separation are 2 different things . All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. This has been my long time understanding! by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The SAME can be said. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. = Extremely Tight . Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? . Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output.